Interesting Electric ???

[MrGrumpy]

Inside EEVs quote Volkswagen - perhaps not the most reliable of sources, but still, the easiest and most recent I found - have said hydrogen compares poorly against battery.

https://insideevs.com/news/406676/batte ... omparison/

But batteries still need a significant step up in technology before they are a real replacement for petrol in cars. They are too heavy, range is still too low and recharging takes too long. I've seen articles saying that graphene based batteries will solve all this - we shall see. And we also need a much better charging infrastructure for battery-powered cars. Its fine if you have a garage or an off-road space in which to charge your vehicle, but many people don't. Also, if you are away from home - how many hotels etc have charging points for all cars?

[capitano]

For me " Battery " based electric still doesn`t make any sense at all.

Not even for urban use?

With, "hot-swap," technology?

They are planning to start wreaking havoc mining the sea bed for the precious metals used for batteries and the sea has enough issues already.

Not ideal, granted, but maybe better than te long term environmental effects of oil exploration/ fracking etc?

At least with battery materials, the precious metals are recyclable after use, unlike oil based fuels.

Mind you the costs of Hydrogen while that does make sense, are still pretty serious.

Costs will come down as the technology gets develioped and more widely used. hat's the same for any new tech.

Regarding " Is there enough " well no there isn`t if many of us all plugged in at the same time say after work so with large EV use there will need to be a managed charge system if you will to cope.

Isn't that just rephrasing the whole capacity argument. There is sufficient capacity. The UK is well ahead of targets as regards switching generation to renwable sources, with nuclear and biomass as backup in the near future, even when the coal stations are completely phased out.

I don't know how else to phrase it. The UK does not have a capacity issue. I presented the facts on that. Those facts are based upon anticipated fluctuations, ie surges "after work." and on colder days etc.

[derekg]

Is the answer in the long run not that we just drive into the "battery station" take out the battery from the car/bike and exchange it in the "Station" for a refilled battery?...bit like getting a filled up Calor/Propane gas for the BBQ. Now the technology needs to develop and changes to the battery placement in a car etc...but I believe that must be the target....and when reached will be quicker than filling with petrol/diesel....and we won't need all those charging points.

[capitano]

Is the answer in the long run not that we just drive into the "battery station" take out the battery from the car/bike and exchange it in the "Station" for a refilled battery?...bit like getting a filled up Calor/Propane gas for the BBQ. Now the technology needs to develop and changes to the battery placement in a car etc...but I believe that must be the target....and when reached will be quicker than filling with petrol/diesel....and we won't need all those charging points.

It's one of the solutions,yes.

My own take on it is that there is no "one-correct-solution."

ie: ICE (internal combustion engine) vehicles will be replaced by not just one technological solution, but many:

• 100% battery vehicles - this will be the most useful technology for completely urban vehicles and smaller PTWs used for comuting, deliveries, personal travel etc within towns and cities. It could also form the basis for more "recreational" vehicles, sports cars, performance motorcycles etc.

• 100% battery vehicles with hot-swap batteries - this will be for more commercial applications where vehicles are used in an urban environment but on a regular basis, eg. mail deliveries, 24 hour services

• 100% battery - large capacity vehicles - larger commercial and industrial vehicles that can cope with larger batteries will be 100% electric, with the capacit for long range, high torque use on a daily basis including long journeys

• true hybrid vehicles with hydrogen fuel cells - Commercial and private vehicles,including family cars, larger PTWs, commercial LGVs etc. The principle being that the vehicle is powered by electric motors, but with a much smaller battery capacity (hence smaller size battery.) The battery is kept charged via a hydrogen fuel cell powered motor

• true hybrid vehicles with alternative fuel powered self charging - The applications would be the same as the hydrogen fuel cell vehicles above, but with the generator to charge the batteries powered by a motor running on other fuels. eg. highly efficient petrol/diesel ICEs, 100% biofuel ICEs, even a small jet engine running efficiently on aviation fuels spinning a generator at high speed.

• Bans/restrictions/taxes/public services - The need for personal powered vehicles can be reduced by provision of more local services, a drive towards working locally rather than commuting, provision of subsidised public transport, higher taxes placing the whole burden of ownership/use on the owner/driver, restrictions of urban use like less urban roads, more provision for walking/cycling/ very-low-emissions-travel, cars and PTWs only able to use urba roads every other day etc.

The list above is not exhaustive.

Solutions to large problems (even simple problems) are very, very rarely single-faceted. ie there is never really one-true-answer.

More, the solution comes in a combination of various technologies, responses, and initiatives that combine to provide the answer.

The last point above is probably the most controversial. The state initiative to provide more cycling/walking spaces and (temporarily?) taking traditional road space to do that, has given a flavour of the choices and sacrifices we may have to make.

[XP500FUN]

I think thats going to be struggle before a huge leap in battery tech.

The weight etc.

A lot of people are not going to be able to lift so much and you`ll get neck and back issues and so on lifting batteries in and out etc.

So going to need to be well manned.

Also relies on a very simple access needed design change as well.

There has been talk of systems to use water and actually get Hydrogen out of water actually in the vehicle.

But not sure how that is going as a tough nut to crack.

Personally I still thnk electric without an onboard source is a bit of a wrong turn and a huge undertaking.

It amazes me that we have the clean answer but are sort of ignoring it re H.

[StephenC]

The next scoot down in the range from the start of this thread has a 7.5kg removable battery (so do all the others too but the weight isn't quoted).

So not light, but manageable. And you can secure the bike from ride-away theft as well as charge it in the home.

[capitano]

It amazes me that we have the clean answer but are sort of ignoring it re H.

Hydrogen fuel cells are currently in a supply and demand stalemate.

ie the early adopters are not plentiful enough to create demand enough to afford to accelerate the technology.

It's far easier at present for manufacturers to develop hybrids that use fossil fuels to spin generators as the technology is present and relatively cheap.

Huge rises in fossil fuel prices would tip the balance towards developing cheap, available hydrogen fuel cells and the infrastructure (safe hydrogen filling equipment)needed to make them viable.

So, a chicken and egg situation.

[XP500FUN]

Agreed, need a bit of Gusto and imput from the Governemnt to get things moving properly.

But currently Gusto or bright and quick isn`t the order of things in the UK in 2020 Sadly.

When you think what the cash for HS2 could do !!! sad really. 100+ now I think.

Imagine if they put that in to a Hydrogen network.

James mays piece on a small Hydrogen fuel cell bike was good years ago, when still Top Gear.