MrGrumpy wrote:How much of this is about engineering, and how much is about style

That links into what Data was saying about engineer and user perspective.
I would add that rider perception and empirical data are way out of synch too.

I remember testers reporting faster acceleration on a multi-carburettor engine when I took off the yummy bell mouth intakes I'd made and put on some K&N pancake filters
Except it wasn't - it was a bit slower on the clock.

It just sounded faster because the pancakes were making a loud induction roar due to crap airflow. Our brains lie to us and are not to be trusted.


Anyway, totally agree on the style/fashion thing. Completely gets in the way of doing a good job a lot of the time

It's funny, but actually the Burgman 400 has a shaft final drive. The rear wheel is driven by a shaft, which is driven by a set of gears, which are driven by a drive belt. Errrr....just saying! It's a quite different system of course to what we were all talking about earlier I guess. But it's a very good sytem.

Data wrote:But it's a very good sytem.

Its certainly a damn sight better than Honda's DCT and chain combo...

Data wrote:It's funny, but actually the Burgman 400 has a shaft final drive. The rear wheel is driven by a shaft, which is driven by a set of gears, which are driven by a drive belt. Errrr....just saying! It's a quite different system of course to what we were all talking about earlier I guess. But it's a very good sytem.

Are we talking about the 650 here?? The 400 is a basic engine on swing arm rubber band drive isn't it??

Data is being a tease. He means the very, very final drive.

I quite like shaft drives in the right application but there is always something to pay in needing at least one extra gear, usually two, extra weight, some losses and the drive trying to wind/drop the suspension when the power goes on/off (you can cure the symptom but not the cause leaving other more subtle effects)

Low maintenance is obviously a bonus.
Most early manufacturers dropped shafts for chains, it isn't a new idea at all. Bicycles rarely use drives shafts for the same reasons.

If scooters were meant to have shafts, Vespas would have them. (geared ones anyway)

MrGrumpy wrote:

Data wrote:It's funny, but actually the Burgman 400 has a shaft final drive. The rear wheel is driven by a shaft, which is driven by a set of gears, which are driven by a drive belt. Errrr....just saying! It's a quite different system of course to what we were all talking about earlier I guess. But it's a very good sytem.

Are we talking about the 650 here?? The 400 is a basic engine on swing arm rubber band drive isn't it??

Yes.
And in the right hands quite capable of two-wheel drifts up the inside of Ducatis, or ridden sidesaddle around the outside of sportsbikes while the rider nonchalantly picks his nose and looks disdainfully at the Kushitani-leathered, Arai-coiffured spurtbike owner travelling 20 miles an hour slower on a fifty mile per hour faster corner... a Burger 400 is quite capable of average journey times that make BMW S1000RR and FirePlace owners sick with envy.

And no, I'm not exaggerating.

What persons often forget is that modern motorcycle design is mired in mediocrity by mere absence of collaborative thinking when the collaborators aren't ostensibly members of the `club`. The fact is that many non-club members have drastically improved on the summary averageness of creative thinking in motorcycle technology only to be beaten back by the incessant whining of dinosaurs. Myself and a bunch of aircraft designers could solve all motorcycle racing front end chatter, arm pump and highside problems in a single morning... and for most of the three hours we'd only be drinking coffee.

The problem often isn't the solution, it's the rules and crass lack of ability that preclude the application of the solution.

Bluebottle wrote:Low maintenance is obviously a bonus.

Yep, that and easier cleaning.

Nice one irev!

irev wrote: Myself and a bunch of aircraft designers could solve all motorcycle racing..........

Do it, win, be rich

I got my start by ignoring "it can't be done" from the established experts.

Saying "yes it can" is OK - saying "it can, here it is" is infinitly better and gets the world's biggest corporations knocking on your door in no time flat - and it feels like a fairytale when you answer the phone to them in just your underpants

"Amateurs" beat the club all the time

Do it, do a Dyson, do a Preston Tucker