Hello Mister Hughie!

Hughie wrote:For those that don't know me I'm a bike 'tech so servicing isn't something I need to take into account.

You've been a great position to form the opinion :

Hughie wrote: I won't buy Italian ever again.

Over 20 years ago I used to 'go out' with a beautiful Italian girl - stunning she was - great fun too! She'd even convinced me she wanted to include her 'best friend'. After lot of alcohol, some footsie in a restaurant and against my better judgement -I complied. Things were never quite the same after though. She became 'insecure', very high maintenance and a right pain in the ears. Needless to say it didn't work out. A short while after another gorgeous Italian lady was chatting me up - but I was having none of it - I'd been scarred for life!
Would you mind sharing your experience?

I think the Piaggio X10 is a fabulous looking Scoot, it's great value too, and can be found for £4795 for the non-farted-on version!
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/ ... ?logcode=p" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've also got a thumbs up for Sym! You might find this interesting: http://www.maxi-muppets.co.uk/forum/vie ... =9&t=14282" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gn2 wrote:

Globs wrote:even the Forza is an old design

Not really.
Well not at all.
New frame, suspension, engine and bodywork.
There are styling similarities between the old and new, but good luck trying to interchange parts.

Yeah - the Forza is actually all new....though I'm sure the Honda parts bin has been heavily raided. Its even lost the clever (complex) gearbox the old model had. Honda claim the engine is new, but I strongly suspect that they wouldn't make an entirely new 279cc engine as they had one from the SH300 already!

The SH didn't have an offset crank, the Forza does, so chances are there's not much SH in there.
The double pivot swingarm idea is common to both.
Old style Forza gearbox "clever"?
I would have said stupid unecessary gimmick.
But I'm a grumpy old man.

Well anonstarter, I once bought a brand new Nexus 500.It was delivered to me in a dangerous condition (in my opinion). I only had to ride it up my drive and into my garage to realise there was something amiss with the steering. A quick check revealed very tight steering head bearings.
I wasn't prepared to let it go back to the dealer as I didn't want anyone touching it so I stripped the front off.To my annoyance,apart from the bearings being over tight there was NO grease in the bearings!
I soon sorted it and it was fine but it left a bad taste in my mouth.I since discovered (via this forum) that the Italians don't have a good record with steering bearings.
A far cry from my experience with Japanese stuff.Of course I'm biased,but my experience has shown me that the Italians make good looking stuff (inc their women) but the build quality side is sometimes lacking imho.

Sad to hear about your Nexus 500 Hughie, sounds like both bad manufacture and _appalling_ PDI by the dealer. I'm not holding my breath for the X10 being perfect in every way but it ticks so many boxes that I feel it's worth a shot - and they really are a bargain IMO. Apparently you do have to make a lower cover for the fusebox yourself on the X10 but I haven't heard any other obvious things.

gn2 wrote:

Globs wrote:even the Forza is an old design

New frame, suspension, engine and bodywork.
There are styling similarities between the old and new, but good luck trying to interchange parts.

Oh, Ok - my bad. What year was the current Forza first built in Japan? I vaguely recall it was in the works for 7 years but can't find the reference - but it's a good sign indeed if it is all new - we need new scooters from Japan.

In fact we need more scooters on the roads too, the Italians are way ahead of us there!

The new Forza isn't made in Japan, its made in Thailand.
There's a big (very nice) Thai Honda design centre there as well as Thai Honda Manufacturing.

Are any Japanese scooters still made in Japan?

Clearly Yamaha and Honda have factories outside of Japan.Not sure about Suzuki.I assume that Kymco build the J300 in their own factory?

Burgman

Hughie wrote:Are any Japanese scooters still made in Japan?

Tmax! Although build quality isn't what it was. Some Japanese scoots like the Honda SH300 have never even seen Japan, being designed & built in Europe.

btw Suzuki did have a factory in Spain where the smaller scoots (eg baby Burgmans) were built - and they were a Europe only model as well. However, that factory has closed and new-version baby Burgers now made in Thailand (and sold in Japan!).