600 on its way

[irev]

Running in too softly is just as bad for an engine as ragging it from zero miles. There are some very good reasons why pussying about may not be the best method, but it's a moot point:

The huge advantage of maxis is that even a numpty behind the bars cannot overrev or abuse them from new, at least not on the road.
You warm it up before riding, scrub the tyres, brakes and allow the suspension to bed in; other than that just ride it and let the CVT sort it out.
Don't hold it near the redline for any time and avoid whanging the throttle full open from cold and you should be good. You don't run a bike in by sticking it at 120 klicks on the M25 and riding round until the mileometer ticks over to `500`, `600` or whatever... The whole machine needs running-in, not just the motor.

Me? I ride it like I stole it, but with the caveat that I need it to last long enough to
a: Get away from the rozzers, innit and
b: Prove an adequate solution to my innate sense of self-preservation.

What all agree that the first oil change is the most significant the machine ever gets. Don't miss it, don't scrimp on it (change the filter too) use good quality oil and a manufacturers own filter (of course this may not apply to SYM owners, but I don't know the state of play of their strainers versus filters). The mineral v. semi-synth argument can rage elsewhere, but I've never seen the benefit for superlubes for scooters.

[Globs]

i ran all mine in according to the book and they use no oil either ...... why on earth anyone would take whats written on the net as gospel and wring the arse of a brand new engine is beyond on me ...... then again some prefer witch doctors to actual qualified doctors

I didn't realise you'd built more engines and run more tests than Motoman, sorry.

Me, I prefer to properly grind the rings in properly when I have the chance, which is why my two SYMs are probably the most powerful in the country. After all, whats a bit of gap between the ring and the bore - only blowby reducing power, polluting the oil and risking burnt ring troubles.

[Data]

Globs, how you or anyone else treats their new engine is up to the individual. But there is considerable evidence that for road bikes the so called motorman method is not the best way for an engine to start it's life and in fact, it actually can shorten an engines life as well as reduce performance, economy and mechanical reliability as the engine naturally ages. And yes, I have teched and rebuilt engines and became am an experienced engine design engineer.

It should not be forgotten that motoman did not invent that method of bedding in an engine. It's a method as old as the hills. BUT it was designed for use on racing engines, not road bikes or cars. Not all road bike engines are suitable for the motoman method either and can suffer considerable damage if subjected to this method. And although it's being used with some apparent initial success by some individuals on their road bikes, there are significant differences between a racing engine and a road bike engine and damage can occur to the road bike. Individuals often don't notice the damage until the engine has covered some significant miles. I won't go into detail here as it's significantly off topic and it's spaceprobes thread.

Like Jamie I ran my Burgman in using the book method recommended by Suzuki. At 6,000 miles I boroscoped the cylinder and the cross hatching was nicely in place with no scoring, zero oil use and loads of power. You won't always find it so on a road bike subjected to motoman. Anyhoo, happy to discuss in depth in a separatethread if anyone wants to.

[Ferret]

I have to agree with Irev . The facts today are production techniques and tolerances are far superior today ,so it is more of bedding in the brakes and suspension rather than the engine . The electronics stop you short of damaging the motor these days majority of the time .

[jamie]

i ran all mine in according to the book and they use no oil either ...... why on earth anyone would take whats written on the net as gospel and wring the arse of a brand new engine is beyond on me ...... then again some prefer witch doctors to actual qualified doctors

I didn't realise you'd built more engines and run more tests than Motoman, sorry.


oh dear oh dear now stop being a baby because people have differing views ..
i could also point out you have no idea what i did for the first thirty years of my working life , but i will leave the expert opinions to google specialists and key board warriors such as yourself

ps id listen to data and a couple of others on here they tend to know what they are talking about

have a nice day flower

[spaceprobe]

Don't worry I will follow the owners manual for the running in period (giving my age away) providing the English in the manual is readable

[Bluebottle]

Sounds like a wise decision

id listen to data

Sounds like wise advice

Having google isn't the same as knowing stuff

[Globs]

Globs, how you or anyone else treats their new engine is up to the individual.

Exactly - so please stop trying to tell me how to run mine in! I have had excellent results with the Motoman method.

But there is considerable evidence that for road bikes the so called motorman method is not the best way for an engine to start it's life and in fact, it actually can shorten an engines life as well as reduce performance, economy and mechanical reliability as the engine naturally ages. And yes, I have teched and rebuilt engines and became am an experienced engine design engineer.

Can you please point us toward some of this considerable evidence?
The symptoms you describe imply you need to bed that ring in properly - that's what Motoman does.

There is considerable evidence that the motoman method yields very good results BTW, on his site and elsewhere. Long term problems on engines run in using the motoman method are likely to come from bad habits like thrashing from cold, you should always wait until an engine is fully warm before using higher powers and rev ranges to best longevity.

BUT it was designed for use on racing engines, not road bikes or cars.

No I think it's been used on all sorts of engines. Even marine outboard engines are given a good full power test at the factory before shipping. Many cars are too. If you have very rough machining then you need to watch the temperature, modern machining however is generally excellent in this regard however - but the temperature gauge will tell you.

If you don't warm the engine up properly or get a faulty one then yes you could do damage, but grinding in the rings properly on a newly honed surface is not witchcraft or black magic, it's simple bedding in. Another essential ingredient is the rapid change of oil required 20 minutes in, if people do not these essential steps then yes - it won't get run in properly.

[SkuTorr]

Okay, my two cents. There is a conflict with bedding-in a new engine, in that you don't want to put higher RPM's on new mechanical parts until a few things have happened:

1.) Surface Hardening. It occurs at medium speeds and moderate loads where there is any impact between parts due to absolute clearances, i.e. cam lobes, rockers, valve stem tops, etc. The ""tapping" of those parts work-hardens them, leading to extended service life, as designed.

2.) Rotating Parts. Bearings, etc. bed-in a bit, depending upon design type and material, with a bit of surface avulsion of tighter spots, high spots, etc. Any debris and manufacturing detritus is (hopefully) caught by the filter. BMW has that initial screen on the big scoots, to catch that stuff on initial break-in. Later, the screen is discarded.

3.) Piston Rings. They DO NOT bed-in due to running friction due to initial materials spring loading and bore surface C of F. By design, top piston rings have a bevel on the inner top edge, to allow for the combustion pressure to not just press down on that ring in its groove, but get behind it and force it outward against the cylinder walls, to bed-in correctly. This is accomplished BEST when BMEP (Brake Mean Effective Pressure) is at a high value, at a steady full throttle at MEDIUM engine speeds. NOT lugging, NOT high-revving.

So what do you do?
1.) NO high speed running initially!
2.) Find a nice, long hill that you can accelerate up STEADILY, at full throttle with medium RPMs. Do it repeatedly, about four times. That's IT, rings are bedded-in.
3.) DON"T wait till the initial 500/700 mile/kilometer/whatever interval to change the oil. By 50 MILES of correct breaking-in, 95% of all the wear surfaces are now loose in your oil. Why run around with all that junk in there? The filter DOES NOT catch it all. Change it then. You will see a sheen of metal particles on the surface of the old oil...

And that's it. It's just physics and materials science; not a mystery.

[Data]

Nice post Sku.

Globs, how you or anyone else treats their new engine is up to the individual.

Exactly - so please stop trying to tell me how to run mine in! I have had excellent results with the Motoman method.

Who is telling you how to run in your engine, I think I specifically say I wasn't doing that!

But there is considerable evidence that for road bikes the so called motorman method is not the best way for an engine to start it's life and in fact, it actually can shorten an engines life as well as reduce performance, economy and mechanical reliability as the engine naturally ages. And yes, I have teched and rebuilt engines and became am an experienced engine design engineer.

Can you please point us toward some of this considerable evidence?
The symptoms you describe imply you need to bed that ring in properly - that's what Motoman does.

I agree, it does imply the rings are not bedded in correctly (and some other things too) and it's due to the use of the motoman method. Motoman can cause issues in other parts of the engine too. Running in is not just about the piston and rings. So motoman doesn't always work properly (continue reading) it's proven, by me and many many other engineers and the engine manufacturers. The evidence is empirical but some engineering research has been done on it not just by me, with the same conclusions. Whether the motoman method works ok for an owner depends on the type of engine, what materials have been used in the cylinder, what finishing process has been used at the factory ie: straight honing, full plateau, semi plateau honing etc etc and how well the owner undertakes the motoman method. Use motorman on the wrong finish and type of engine and it can cripple the engine for life and severely shorten it's existence. That's well proven and has been known for the last 40 years or more in the trade. Too much throttle when the cylinder bore is at it's softest (when new) can take off far too much metal and it usually always does whatever finishing process has been used at the factory. Using motorman also severely stunts the conforming process which is still needed to some degree and prevents proper work hardening of the piston and rings leading to further rapid wear. Whilst developing a new engine for a bike and conversely also a car, we tested the different running in techniques over two years ago on several engines of the same type. We did this for lots of engineering reasons (as do all developers on new designs) and tried differing types of metals, finishing processors and also called in the oil and metallurgy experts to analyse the results. Without exception, all engines suffered when the motorman method was used. The main problem was compressive wear damage which occurred during the motoman exercise and much of which won't show up until the engines are advancing into their second and third year of normal ownership or until reaching higher miles. Our analysis was that engine life was shortened significantly on our own engine development. This ties up with what I've seen as a tech over the last 30 odd years. This is the conclusion of just about all manufacturers by the way and the reason the motoman method is not recommended for normal road bikes.

There is also a further concern regarding not just the engine life, but safety. Racing engines where this method of fast running in has to be used are carefully set up to allow for the extra heat generated in the cylinders by using that method. This is done is several ways but significantly, the piston ring gaps are set larger to allow for the extra expansion that motoman causes. Pistons are also given extra clearance with ovality kept to a minimum. On road bikes no such extra tolerances are allowed for. In fact, it's quite the reverse to bigger tolerances. They are much finer/smaller clearances to give your engine a long life. This means there is a serious risk to the uninitiated using this fast run in method of suffering an engine seizure at speed causing...well you know the score. Even if a seizure is not an occurrence, scoring of the cylinder bore/s is significantly more likely as the rings expand exponentially causing often substantial pick up of metal from the cylinder bore/s as they exert far too much pressure on the soft cylinder walls. I've seen several engines where owners have used motoman and experienced high oil use due to scoring of the cylinder/s due to overheating and pick up. I've seen broken piston rings too at very early mileage on a variety of bikes that have been run in using this fast method.

There is considerable evidence that the motoman method yields very good results BTW, on his site and elsewhere. Long term problems on engines run in using the motoman method are likely to come from bad habits like thrashing from cold, you should always wait until an engine is fully warm before using higher powers and rev ranges to best longevity.

The motoman method can work out ok if the owner knows what he is doing. But the trade off is nearly always shorter engine life with the possibility of an earlier mechanical failure. Be clear about using motorman that the intention is to 'age' the engine fast so that full power can be used straight away. It was never intended as a method to give long reliable engine life for road bikes. The fact that engines survive this treatment is testament to how well they are built and not anything motoman contributes

BUT it was designed for use on racing engines, not road bikes or cars.

No I think it's been used on all sorts of engines. Even marine outboard engines are given a good full power test at the factory before shipping. Many cars are too. If you have very rough machining then you need to watch the temperature, modern machining however is generally excellent in this regard however - but the temperature gauge will tell you.

To be entirely accurate, it was a method developed for early aircraft engines (piston type) where full power is needed straight away on a new engine to get off the ground. It's not used now. But has been used on a variety of engine types since and the racing brigade employed it from the word go in the 20's as there were many advantages in that field. However, even Porche mostly run in their engines before the customer takes delivery. They do not use the motoman method, it's done on a computer controlled machine at the factory where the engine is exercised at normal speeds then faster speeds then much faster speeds with time for stops and cooling and duration increased as the miles go on. It simulates the first 500 miles of driving or thereabouts.

Like I say, I see little need for it's use on road bikes, and it can be risky inspite of what you may read on tinternet. If it was the running in panacea for road bikes that some proclaim the manufacturers would advise it. They do not because of the potential and actual problem that can and do occur. And you do in my opinion actually get a better result from following the manufacturers instructions on running in. Yes it takes a bit longer but the result is usually always better. It can still be done in a weekend if you are determined. It will take a little more time to reach performance maturity and it may use the slightest amount of oil during the first couple of thousand miles but it will then stop as conforming continues and the engine will become more powerful without glazing the bore/s. The problem is that owners often think following the manufacturers instructions means riding slowly. It doesn't. Glad it's worked out ok for you so far Globs. But would love to take a look at your engine when it's done 25-30k. I can almost guarantee what I'll find in the bore with my borescope and you won't like it. But by then you will probably have started to notice the slight oil use and the odd puff of smoke.