Updated Hondas

[velocipede6295]

I have really tried to like the Honda DCT. In the past few years I've had NC 750X DCT ( kept about 2 weeks), an NC 700S DCT ( kept less than 2 weeks), an X ADV 750 ( kept 8 Months) - I really tried to like that one! I have kept my Forza 300 for 3 years during the time I have tried and got shut of the DCT models. I prefer much prefer my Forza with the CVT plus other reasons.

[MrGrumpy]

An automated gearbox can be the best of both and is now very firmly established on every other sort of vehicle. The motorcycle market of course then decides anything more complicated than a Sturmy-Archer 3 speed is going to break and doesn't buy the promised numbers anyway. Honda will drop DCT as soon as the bolt on auto changer is established and the tooling is worn out. It'll go the way of Moto Guzzi Converts and other products that believed what the market said rather than does.

Andy

Well, lots of other manufacturers are introducing automated manual boxes of various sorts. Even KTM - the last people I'd expect - have just announced a new box with clutchless manual or fully automatic shifts (incl centrifugal clutch). Honda also have the E-clutch system with a manual box without a manual clutch and BMW have introduced something - though I can't remember what as I don't take much notice of BMWs these days! And of course quickshifters are everywhere. Whether the Honda DCT offers a significant advantage over such systems which are (presumably) simpler lighter and cheaper than DCT I've no idea. I only have a very small amount of experience of riding the DCT, and it certainly didn't blow my socks off at first acquaintance - I was very happy to get back on the Tmax with good old-fashioned CVT!

Going off on a tangent, Kawasaki's recent hybrid bike seems interesting concept to me, with petrol (500cc engine), electric only and combined modes with some sort of clever automated gearbox to make it all work. Its currently available on a rather tepid sportsbike which seems the wrong choice to me - it would seem an interesting power train for something more practical like a maxi-scoot - elec mode for city streets and then petrol and hybrid modes for when you are out in the sticks or on the M-ways.

[Andym]

The Kawasaki seems confused. From what I've read I can't tell if it's a petrol bike with a booster (acceleration oriented) or a hybrid aimed at efficiency. Possibly they want it to be both depending on who's asking.

Auto changers are far simpler (and lower cost) than DCT, hence Honda will drop DCT and go "E-clutch". They aren't my product so I aren't really sure if DCT is really that much better. Killing the throttle so you can make a clutch less change (possibly without some riders realising that's even possible) was stage 1. Next they improved 12v electric actuators to the point they can do what your fingers did. At that point you can worry less about having two clutches and making measured changes. The fact the auto-changer bolts on so conventional or "E-clutch" share parts will please production people.

I aren't a fan of hybrids, you get the weight of electric with the complexity of ICE. If it's a way to avoid 80 mile range limits and 4 hours to refuel though I'll take one that has a wheel motor and petrol generator please. No gear changing required. It'd feel more CVT but choices on "feel" aren't my personal priority, I'll take what works.

Andy

[Funkycowie]

My MK3 Tmax wouldn't do much better than about 55-59, my NC750x on the other hand will do high 80's on my commute or as much as 95 on a long run. That difference in fuel costs pays for my servicing and still saves me money

[John A]

DCT is much more economical. My Nc750s had a lot better mpg than my ADV350.

I'm not surprised, when I had the 350 it spent a lot of the time at near throttle, as the power was adequate. But throw in a headwind / hill and then it was fully open. My Tmax laughs at headwinds and hills and so is at full throttle much less of the time. And so for my riding, there's not a massive difference in economy. That said, when I came through the Netherlands 4 months ago as the speed limit was 100kph and there was a slight tailwind, the economy shot right up.

[roadster]

These half measures to automate gearboxes are never going to reap the benefits of a fully hybrid system where an electric motor provides the only connection to the back wheel and, supplemented by a relatively small battery, a specially designed internal combustion engine acts as a generator only as needed. This system works brilliantly in my Nissan car but scaling the technology down for two wheels requires great investment.

Make no mistake eliminating the gearbox and clutch completely provides a seamless and responsive transmission and the associated control electronics give the driver absolute choice of how much pseudo braking is used regeneratively during deceleration. Likewise the IC engine is designed to operate only at its most efficient for any required power output, actual engine rpm not being in any way mechanically dictated by the road wheel speed.

The only difficult area for two wheelers is the integration of regeneration under braking which does require a completely new approach to front brake design. Its not impossible but there is little sign of work in this area as far as I know.

The other big advantage for manufacturers is that the platform once developed can transition to other fuels, or battery only, with very little change to the drive train and its controls.

[MrGrumpy]

My MK3 Tmax wouldn't do much better than about 55-59, my NC750x on the other hand will do high 80's on my commute or as much as 95 on a long run. That difference in fuel costs pays for my servicing and still saves me money

You are obviously an economical rider - I have your old mk3 Tmax, and I can't get anything near the figures you got on it! I suspect that I wouldn't get anything like high 80s on your 750x - I seem to have a heavy right hand! btw your old Tmax is still doing OK, except that the battery has failed this morning! It is beginning to get a bit tired though - the heated grips have stopped working, the parking brake cable has snapped somewhere (far too much labour cost to replace), but its still huge fun to ride!

[Data]

My MK3 Tmax wouldn't do much better than about 55-59, my NC750x on the other hand will do high 80's on my commute or as much as 95 on a long run. That difference in fuel costs pays for my servicing and still saves me money

Must say your NC is a beauty Peter. Looks great, goes great & as you say, very economical.

[Filonian]

The NC750 mpg figures obtainable always surprises new owners.
No matter how I rode my Honda Integra 750, it always returned above 80mpg even ridden hard and sometimes up to 90mpg when just cruising around.
I now have an NC750x DCT and so far this is proving to be just as economical, people are amazed when they see the average consumption figures on the dash.
The DCT on the 750x seems to have better gear ratio settings so much so that I don't need to ride in sport mode. Standard mode now doesn't seem to have the bike labouring in too high a gear, changing up at higher speeds than before.
DCT is not to every ones liking but I like it . It does give instant response to throttle openings without the revving.

[velocipede6295]

I couldn't get along with the change down from 2nd to 1st, at 11 mph, on a tight turn or mini roundabouts. It really jarred, and wasn't at all smooth, on all my DCT Honda 750s in auto mode. How do other NC 750 DCT owners get on with that gear change?